tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post2674194327567371625..comments2024-03-09T03:06:38.871-08:00Comments on Tartine Bread Experiment: City Bread, An AccomplishmentFrancehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01123188752355883535noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-70206985682781400992013-05-17T14:16:08.374-07:002013-05-17T14:16:08.374-07:00hey there Raluca. i have never had success with do...hey there Raluca. i have never had success with dough that has been fermented at room temperature in either the bulk fermentation stage or the final fermentation stage. i consistently use my refrigerator in the way that i outline, because after much experimentation, trial and error, this is what works best for me. but, everyone has a different experience. there is no harm at trying longer fermentations at room temperature to see what comes of it!<br /><br />francis-oliveFrancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01123188752355883535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-78893778703659382592013-05-17T01:12:10.596-07:002013-05-17T01:12:10.596-07:00Hello, after trying a few times Chad's formula...Hello, after trying a few times Chad's formula, I must say I ended up a little bit hesitating whith such high hidrated doughs. These because I bought all the tree books of Chad, Hamlman and Reinhard in the same day. Of course, Tartine was the first try. Now, I keep to Hamelman's formulas until i get more confident. I don't like 65% hidration, and I feel ok with 70% but, 75% it's a mess. The breads from the first attempts were delicios but i hade large problems in shaping the dough. Now, I discovered your blog today, and I'm optimistic. I have a question on bulk fermentation. I saw you mentioned that there are high room temepratures, and that you bulk ferment 2 hours at room temp and 2 hour in the fridge. Can you tell me please what is that temeprature ? I have in this times about 72.5 F constantly and I think I can manage with all the 4 hours at room temeprature. What do you thing ? Thank you very much:)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02842823549155108853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-48211062906820101182013-05-03T09:33:29.374-07:002013-05-03T09:33:29.374-07:00haha. freeze the vital wheat gluten (give some of ...haha. freeze the vital wheat gluten (give some of it away, it's an awful lot. i don't know how anyone can use a whole bag, unless they are making bagels every day). you will need it for when you do 100% whole grain breads from time to time. unfortunately, you cannot extend the bulk fermentation. think of it as rubberbands during this fermentation stage. once they stretch too far, they snap and break and there is nothing you can do to save broken gluten structure. so, i'm afraid this is a moment of lost dough. it's ok. it happens. it sucks, but it happens. as a rule, i have only pushed the first ferment to 5 hours, and this was really pushing it. 4 hours is best. its the final ferment that can take the long fermentation.<br /><br />yeah. my stone lives in the oven. middle rack. always. it makes a huge difference with that bottom crust. especially if you have a cheap oven like me. my oven is so cheap! its a series of hot spots. not even at all. ah, well....<br /><br />and thank you for passing around the blog! my goal was to create something simple, informative and correct. i hated struggling with bread, so the blog was born so that people don't have to. it's like one of my recent posts 'it's just bread'. its just something that we do. it should be simple and satisfying every time. no mystery. no tedium. its just bread for dinner or whatever. i could not abide by all of those mysterious books and blogs that made baking scary. it does not have to be. i've never ever ever received one comment where someone's bread came out wrong from my blog, and that makes me extraordinarily happy, because it means i've accomplished my goal. i love that people making bread for the first time, using starters made from the blog are having bread on the table in a few days. this is what makes people continue baking. bad loaves will make people give up.<br /><br />bread is like life. it should be challenging, but fun. the anticipation that everything will come out right now matter what. it should be fulfilling. it should be promising. we should love it, ever minute of it. wake up looking forward to it, go to bed feeling happy with it, with our accomplishments within it. i think the tartine bread experiment gives people little successes in their day (that's how i feel every time a bread comes out right, to this day). it lifts my mood. i feel accomplished. i feel that i can take on the world. how is anyone supposed to feel that with books that cause failed breads one after the other (i have those books). it's a terrible thing. i suppose i could do more complicated things. take the temperature of my dough. get into arguments over this or that in the bread world. but i will leave that to the people who like to make life complicated. for me, it's just flour, water, starter and salt. c'est ca, et c'est facile!<br /><br />foFrancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01123188752355883535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-34157772335665869492013-05-03T09:20:29.185-07:002013-05-03T09:20:29.185-07:00such great news! a perfect loaf of bread = a happy...such great news! a perfect loaf of bread = a happy day. i must agree. and i always bake straight out of the fridge. and sometimes the dough doesn't 'look' right. always see the bread through the bake. it often surprises you. congratulations. and that spiral is crazy! i have some friends in europe and the middle east who always do the spiral now and send me pics of their bread. how cool is that? have fun eating your baby ;)<br /><br />f0Francehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01123188752355883535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-65871953450821074222013-05-02T10:17:44.300-07:002013-05-02T10:17:44.300-07:00My "first" tartine style loaf of bread.....My "first" tartine style loaf of bread....City Bread round 1..... crackling success!<br />and, if you recall, I had added vital wheat gluten (1 tsp.) and I will never do that again.<br />I could see that if I had added anymore than what I did, it would have been gummy.<br />What surprised me the most was the degree of oven spring that I got. When I placed the dough, straight out of the fridge, into the cast iron dutch oven it was kinda flat. When I took the cover off at the 30 min mark, It had risen almost to the top of the rim of the dutch oven!! Baked for another 30 min. and it was perfect.<br />P.S. I borrowed your spiral slash...looked like pics of your bread. :)<br />Bottom line. I took a real sense of pride in developing my own starter and using it to make this bread.<br />It really was "my baby"..BobinCAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-91794146156473768502013-05-01T07:38:53.691-07:002013-05-01T07:38:53.691-07:00fo,
thanks for your prompt, and to-the-point respo...fo,<br />thanks for your prompt, and to-the-point response to my questions...(but I am not les, I am bobinca.. :)<br />Btw... any one interested in an opened bag of "vital wheat gluten" used only once?? :)<br /><br />Question:<br />yesterday, I did all of the turns at 30 min. intervals, and then put in the fridge for a planned ferment of 2 hrs.Then I get a phone call that ruins the fermenting schedule. I have to go pick up my granddaughter and that means that the dough will have to stay in the fridge until the next morning (today). Can I pick up where I left off? Or, is the dough going to be over-fermented? What corrective measures would you recommend before I put the dough in the oven?<br />Finally, are you using a stone under your combo cooker? or, do you put it in the oven without a stone?<br />Thank you again for your most informative blog. I have been recommending this blog to my baking friends and they all think that it is fantastic!! I think it is better than most of the bread books out there.BobinCAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-10858899316713969442013-04-30T17:09:09.924-07:002013-04-30T17:09:09.924-07:00ps, there is such a high protein content in most h...ps, there is such a high protein content in most high quality ap flours that most bakers actually prefer to use it over bread flour. bread flour makes a strong loaf of bread, and i generally only use it when i pair it with a whole grain, i.e., 110g of rye or whole wheat or spelt, and 390g of bread flour. the extra power in the bread flour makes up for the lost gluten when using whole grain flours. but as a rule, when i make all white flour bread, or breads with just a small percentage of whole grain flour, i always use ap flour. no need for more. ap does not have that much less gluten than bread flour (depending upon the brand of course), and is considered a high gluten flour with good quality protein. you only need to worry about those loaves when you are using high percentages of whole grain, and i never need to use vital wheat gluten (except for the reasons noted above). i do increase the amount of levain in these breads. yes, any bread formula can be halved. you may need to adjust the hydration a bit, but ive cut my own formulae down the middle from the amount of levain to the amount of salt and i've always been just fine.<br /><br />hope all this helps.<br /><br />foFrancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01123188752355883535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-16115111664731624922013-04-30T17:03:37.101-07:002013-04-30T17:03:37.101-07:00hey les. i use either sea salt or kosher salt. nev...hey les. i use either sea salt or kosher salt. never table salt. there's iodine in it and it's gross.<br />um, well, using ap in place of bread flour is fine as long as the ap is a good quality (like king arthur, bobs red mill), and no you dont need to add vital wheat gluten to ap flour. there is PLENTY of gluten in ap. you only ever want to use vital wheat gluten as a last resort (i.e., for 100% whole grain loaves) and for bagels. it should never be an automatic ingredient to add. even with a 50% whole grain and 50% white (either ap or bread flour) you will not need vital wheat gluten. vital wheat gluten should be used cautiously and expertly. it can cause a gummy loaf with an off taste if the user does not know his/her way around that ingredient.<br /><br />with that said, next time, doing 100% ap loaves with either starter is fine. i make them all the time.<br /><br />foFrancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01123188752355883535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-11865551024202636932013-04-30T15:12:08.427-07:002013-04-30T15:12:08.427-07:00Francis-Olive,
My rye starter is 9 days old and co...Francis-Olive,<br />My rye starter is 9 days old and compares favorably with your pics.<br />Decided on making your Round 1 City Loaf bread...Last night I made the levain for the bread and this morning I mixed the ingredients, flour and wwflour, etc. I just finished the autolyse and added the salt and remaining water.<br />Questions at this point...<br />when you mention salt..does it mean table salt, or Kosher salt? I know it makes a difference.<br />As I decided to make enough dough for one loaf, instead of two, I halved everything in the recipe. I am assuming that this will work?<br />Finally, I did not have bread flour available, so I used AP flour, but added 1 tsp of vital wheat gluten. I was thinking that I was constructing my own bread flour. Is this correct thinking?<br />As I decided to try 2 different types of starters, all rye, and combo AP+ww, I will use this starter for another Round 1 and see what difference it makes in the final product. <br />Thanks for your blog....LOVE IT!!BobinCAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-41074510230446318152013-03-15T14:43:35.614-07:002013-03-15T14:43:35.614-07:00That's so nice to hear Les.
Scoring:
1) if y...That's so nice to hear Les.<br /><br />Scoring:<br /><br />1) if you work with high hydration doughs, you will sacrifice les grignes. it's just the truth. 'appropriately' (translation: not overly hydrated) hydrated loaves make for more prominent ears, so, even if your razor leaves a jagged slash, it will still open up to a full ear. (i'm thrifty, so i use my razor more than i probably should. i often have jagged slashes, and they smooth out upon baking).<br /><br />2) score deeply. i often go through the slash a second time. like 1/2"<br /><br />3) and here is the key: slash PARALLEL to the floor, not perpendicular. perpendicular slashes make the dough spread, parallel slashes make the ears perky.<br /><br />have a look at this post. it has a slashing video...<br /><br />http://tartine-bread.blogspot.com/2013/01/mongrel-spelt-mega-stout-video.html<br /><br />i hope this helps!<br /><br />francis-oliveFrancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01123188752355883535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-46311383098707571652013-03-15T11:49:59.771-07:002013-03-15T11:49:59.771-07:00Hello Francis-Olive
Your blog has become my go-to ...Hello Francis-Olive<br />Your blog has become my go-to reference in my pursuit of Tartine-loaf perfection. Thank you for that!<br />My loaves are coming along pretty well, each better than the one before. But one skill I have yet to master is scoring.<br />I've seen videos where the razor creates a clean cut which then opens into a clean cleft, maybe 1/4" deep, before baking and then that "Cheshire cat" grigne in the oven. But my razor drags through the dough and the cut immediately opens into a flat scar with no depth.<br />Do you have any tips on scoring.<br />LesLesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-17586764369361330402012-07-01T11:21:22.234-07:002012-07-01T11:21:22.234-07:00i dont take temps. just room temperature filtered ...i dont take temps. just room temperature filtered water :)Francehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01123188752355883535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-86662826404916388802012-03-08T04:59:22.207-08:002012-03-08T04:59:22.207-08:00Great post!! What temp water are you using?Great post!! What temp water are you using?JennyGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-5184218001528948602011-12-15T00:56:35.453-08:002011-12-15T00:56:35.453-08:00no. just turn. and leave it be.no. just turn. and leave it be.Francehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01123188752355883535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-29833917846767855712011-12-14T19:40:38.282-08:002011-12-14T19:40:38.282-08:00when you do your turns during the first part of th...when you do your turns during the first part of the bulk fermentation, do you invert the whole dough afterwards so the seam side is down in the bowl?Ianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05700769831040017909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-28051586704049748442011-11-14T11:38:42.100-08:002011-11-14T11:38:42.100-08:00wonderfull!!!wonderfull!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-82182631308956949472011-09-27T21:20:14.277-07:002011-09-27T21:20:14.277-07:00sister! omg. did you totally love the rye and demi...sister! omg. did you totally love the rye and demi-wheat? so good. i cant stop eating it with cheese.<br /><br />check out the latest post. your bread is wading about the limelight over there ; )<br /><br />tell lola i said, 'hey girl!' she is such a hip little canadian chick!<br /><br />- frankieFrancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01123188752355883535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-73832632406247079222011-09-27T19:47:48.499-07:002011-09-27T19:47:48.499-07:00I am Francis' neighbor and I am so lucky to li...I am Francis' neighbor and I am so lucky to live next door to her. <br />One: Because she is a lovely person! <br />Two: Because her bread is Tote Amaze! I know she will self critique her work, but I'm here to tell you everything is even more delicious than it looks!<br />Keep baking friend!<br />We love your work!<br />Love, Jenn, Brandon and baby Lola xoJenn Robertsonhttp://societyfinch.lanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-48571226886928968992011-09-22T16:34:43.809-07:002011-09-22T16:34:43.809-07:00mmmmm. now there's a great idea. i would love ...mmmmm. now there's a great idea. i would love to try oat sourdough bread. so, you did a 6 hour bulk ferment in the fridge? i would love to see pics of the bread. how was the crumb?Francehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01123188752355883535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-18061837451200573202011-09-22T13:05:26.759-07:002011-09-22T13:05:26.759-07:00I did 1 C Ground Oats, 1.25Cups Whole Wheat, 1.5 c...I did 1 C Ground Oats, 1.25Cups Whole Wheat, 1.5 cup AP Flour, 1.75 C water, and 0.42 C 100%hydration white starter + a pinch of dry active yeast (1/8 tsp) . 6 hours in the frig, and 2 hour rise after it was out of the frig. Really good bread. Good and hearty, way better than white bread.<br /><br />The first time I didn't let the dough rise enough and the bread was like a brownie which was actually pretty good.<br /><br />ThanksAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-81146661270059561642011-09-15T07:52:03.863-07:002011-09-15T07:52:03.863-07:00Hi Francis-Olive, now I get the point of the levai...Hi Francis-Olive, now I get the point of the levain made from a portion of the starter and will try it. Baker boy, I'm very new to baking with sourdough. My starter is just under a year old. Good luck on your baking adventures!gretchennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-55365391899969216602011-09-14T08:33:27.508-07:002011-09-14T08:33:27.508-07:00sounds like it could have been the levain. i make ...sounds like it could have been the levain. i make mine overnight, so, it ferments for about 7 hours. i'm sure its a challenge to bake in the hot weather. you have to make considerable changes to all of your time tables. sounds like you found your solution to a more mild flavored bread. thank you for following my blog. it's really nice to hear, always, that people are out there reading it!Francehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01123188752355883535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-10213071492925758792011-09-14T05:53:10.760-07:002011-09-14T05:53:10.760-07:00Hi Francis-Olive! My mother starter came from Brea...Hi Francis-Olive! My mother starter came from Bread Baker's Apprentice by Peter Reinhart which I started last year February. It calls for only white flour for the feeding and i noticed when I read his other book Artisan Breads Everyday, he switched from a wet mother starter to a more stiffer starter and so I also switched mine which requires less feeding per week. I've been keeping mine in the fridge and feeds it once a week when I'm not using it and then refreshing it the day before I would normally make my Levain. <br /><br />Chad's formula for the levain calls for 50/50 flour and whole wheat ratio but for some reason we don't have whole wheat flour at our local bakery supplier here in manila, what they do have is the whole wheat meal(grounded bran and germ from the wheat kernel) which is what you would add to your bread flour to make a whole wheat flour. They said that the germ from the wheat kernel becomes rancid really fast thats why they don't sell whole wheat flour anymore. And its one of the reason why I don't use the whole wheat meal for feeding my starter, i only use bread flour. <br /><br />For my Levain formula, I only use 12% dark rye flour (medium rye flour isn't available here in manila), bread flour 88%, and water 125%. This early morning, I wanted to experiment on the fermentation for the levain, I started my Levain at 2am and used cool water and instead of fermenting it for 12 hours, I only fermented it for 6 hours. The reason is that most of the breads tasted too sour whenever I ferment it for too long before making the dough So I cut back on the fermentation of the levain and even before it becomes a "young starter", i used it to make my dough. I proceeded with the normal bread making procedure and when i tasted it, it wasn't as sour and it was just right for my taste. I was reading your blog about the other Tartine bread that you have been making and you have been really helpful to my bread adventures!baker boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12024401294476888292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-26949330986995675762011-09-13T21:25:20.188-07:002011-09-13T21:25:20.188-07:00it might be worth noting that the tartine book cal...it might be worth noting that the tartine book calls for the creation of a larger amount of levain than needed for the formulae (it makes double the amount called for). the remaining levain becomes your new starter. it retains part of the old culture, thus, the identity of that culture is maintained, but since a 'seed' amount of the original starter was used, then the amount of acetic acid is able to be controlled. if the baker bakes consistently, then he is always creating a new starter/using a newer starter in his/her breads. because we know that older starters produce acetic acid (which lends more of a bite than lactic acid produced by younger cultures), one would surmise that if you bake consistently and take tartine's advice, using a piece of the levain as your new sourdough culture with a frequent baking schedule, then your leavening agent will always contain less acetic acid. understanding the nature of, and controlling the acid in your starter is the mark of a very good baker.<br /><br />another consideration is that because of the considerable fermentable sugars and minerals that rye flour offers to the yeasts in your culture/levain, it produces more acidic breads than those without rye. are you using dark rye? dark rye has more minerals and fermentable sugars than medium rye. try switching to medium rye which will produce less acid since there are less sugars present for the starter to eat, and thus, reduces the amount of acid it excretes.<br /><br />thinking about how all this works, it might be ideal for someone like you who does not want a sour bread to 1) avoid those recipes that call for a larger volume of starter as your leavening agent and always work with a levain. 2) pinch off a piece of your levain as the seed for your new starter every time you bake, to control the acid levels in your culture and thus your bread 3) avoid or limit refrigerated fermentation 4) you might avoid using a refrigerated sourdough culture, since one that lives in the fridge is bound to be higher in acetic acid than one that lives in a warmer environment 5) maintain a looser culture, one with 125% hydration is probably ideal for you 6) use a smaller percentage of rye in your bread, since rye flour gives ample sugars for the starter to feed on, thus producing a larger volume of acid which results in a more acidic loaf of bread. further, the type of rye that you use in your bread will affect the acidity in your bread. darker rye will produces more acidic breads, so stick to medium rye. but avoid light rye, which is devoid of the nutrients and depth of flavor that makes using rye so interesting. 6) consider keeping a white starter rather than a rye starter which would control the level of acid in a mature starter. you can convert any rye starter to a white one by reducing the amount of rye flour with your feeds and increasing the amount of white flour, until you are eventually using all white flour in your feeds.<br /><br />i hope all of this helps!Francehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01123188752355883535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3970320677819739454.post-42257204881009255802011-09-13T21:25:04.818-07:002011-09-13T21:25:04.818-07:00hi baker boy,
well, what is your fermentation and...hi baker boy,<br /><br />well, what is your fermentation and proofing practice? while cooler fermentation and proofing is what enhances the flavor of breads leavened with wild yeast cultures, it also lends sourness because of increased acetic acid development. just to remind you, acetic acid develops more bountifully in a cooler environment (i.e., refrigeration). so if you are retarding your fermentation in any way, this will increase the acid level in your final dough.<br /><br />another consideration is that an older starter will add more tang than a younger starter. in a younger starter, lactic acid is the predominant acid that develops, this acid is a smoother, mellower tasting acid. as a culture gets older, it begins to develop acetic acid as well, which adds the vinegary 'bite' that you might be noticing. to mention further, a stiffer starter will have more pronounced acidity than a liquid starter. (lactic and acetic acids are the byproducts produced as the bacteria of your starter eats the sugars in the flour that you feed it).<br /><br />now that you know that an older starter creates more of an acidic bread, as does a stiffer starter and a colder environment during fermentation, you might always consider using a 'pre-ferment' , a levain, rather than a large volume of starter to leaven your breads. using a levain requires that you take a small amount of starter, and mix it with a volume of flour and water. when left to sit for several hours, it becomes colonized by the microorganisms in the starter, and will grow strong enough to raise your dough. this levain becomes your 'young' starter, and will have a less pronounced acidity because you are only using a seed amount of your potentially acidic 'mother' culture (CONTINUED BELOW).Francehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01123188752355883535noreply@blogger.com